* Joins: xRENx
<Kikered_> Hi there, Ren
<xRENx> Hello Kikered
<FIA-Kaiser> Hello, ren
<xRENx> Hi :3
<xRENx> So?How is it that VNs are so hard to finish?
<Kikered_> I have to admit that they aren't too hard to finish if you're diligent at it. =P
<Kikered_> But whether they'll meet your quality expectations is another story.
<xRENx> Being diligent is a hard thing
<xRENx> Besides, it seems most people set their goals a bit too high lately
<Kikered_> I agree. =P
<Kikered_> On both counts.
<xRENx> Not that trying to overcome your limits is a bad thing, I don't want Cloud to pop up and start another defeatism attituse rant
<Kikered_> XD
<xRENx> but there's a difference between trying to improve and putting a battle system, 456 endings and 476585756785 event CGs
<FIA-Kaiser> Oh no. D:
<Kikered_> XD
<Kikered_> To be honest, I don't like it when people set unrealistic goals and then use it as their excuse for not being able to reach it. 
<FIA-Kaiser> Oh, I think someone just told me before I was a defeatist
<FIA-Kaiser> Since I worked only to where my knowledge allowed me with WS. D:
<xRENx> Hehe
* FIA-Kaiser sobs
<Kikered_> There, there
<xRENx> Come on, he just likes to tease you :P
<Kikered_> Indeed.
<xRENx> That's like brotherly love!
<Kikered_> I was about to say the same. =3
<xRENx> http://mugenjohncel.deviantart.com/
<FIA-Kaiser> There is time to joke, and there is time to discuss.
<FIA-Kaiser> Because I think we discussed back then instead of joking around
<Kikered_> Anyhow... the biggest bottleneck for me is the writing. =
<Kikered_> =|
<xRENx> As in...keeping on writing itself with diligence?
<xRENx> Or because you reach a ppoint where you're not able to?
<Kikered_> Hm... for me, it's because I'm generally not very happy with the way I write and phrase things. ^^;
<Kikered_> So I end up looking back and changing what's already there instead of forging forward.
<xRENx> That happens to me with drawings
<xRENx> So I can relate, in a way
<Kikered_> =)
<Kikered_> As a bit of a metaphor: imagine multiple pipes, each with knobs, feeding into a single pipe where the final product comes out...
<Kikered_> I know what I want to come out of it, but I don't know which knobs to turn to get it. ^^;
<xRENx> XD Yes, that's pretty much the feeling
<FIA-Kaiser> The reason why vn is hard to finish in my opinion
<FIA-Kaiser> 1) Aim too high
<FIA-Kaiser> 2) Burnt out motivation
<Kikered_> That sounds like the common causes for the general case. But how about for *you*? =P
<FIA-Kaiser> Who said I find it hard to finish? :P
<FIA-Kaiser> All I need is an ample amount of time. :)
<xRENx> (Or are they?)
* FIA-Kaiser poses as Mr Heart
<FIA-Kaiser> "Buhihihi. Your discussion does not work against me." :P
<xRENx> It does, you just don't want to admit it :P
<Kikered_> =P
<FIA-Kaiser> The only hard about it is being time-consuming for me.
<FIA-Kaiser> But I don't find that an obstacle at all. :)
<xRENx> I'd be also interested in knowing which compromises most people find acceptable to finish a VN
<xRENx> Besides not having 5738364 CGs
<xRENx> I have the feeling it's harder for a writer not to include an arc in the story than tit would be for an artist not to draw a certain scene
<xRENx> On the other hand, if something I'm proud of was excluded I'd commit seppuku
<xRENx> :D
<FIA-Kaiser> An artist tends to have it harder
<xRENx> How so?
<FIA-Kaiser> well, if the artist drew something, and the director finds it not good enough? :P
<Kikered_> ^^;
<xRENx> You just crawl in a corner and start to cry
<xRENx> Then, you start sucking on your thumb
<Kikered_> ^^;;
* FIA-Kaiser sees the microshop goes "Dingdong!"
<Kikered_> It's easier to compromise when it's a one-person effort. =P
<FIA-Kaiser> be in a minute
<xRENx> I don't know, I guess I should try to know how it feels
<xRENx> I only had drawings not accepted in art classes
<xRENx> But I don't think it's a tragedy
<Kikered_> Mm. It depends on the supreme director's temperament, too.
<xRENx> It would be worst if I wanted to draw a certain scene and wasn't able to, then had to include it in a ipothetical game because the author thinks it's good enough
<xRENx> Yeah, I never had to deal with someone that dissed anything I did.Temperament sure counts
<Kikered_> =P
<Kikered_> Also, you could cut scope if you feel like you aren't getting anywhere. ^^;
<Kikered_> It's harder to do if you're working with others though.
<xRENx> Heh, which brings us to compromises
<Kikered_> Indeed. I wish I could say more about it concerning VN projects, but I haven't had to compromise in that arena. ^^;
<Kikered_> Regarding projects in general, researching alternatives, presenting pros and cons, and giving your recommendation is a good way to compromise.
<Kikered_> (Along with any reasoning for why a particular decision should be made)
<xRENx> I see, that sounds like a positive way to make compromises
<Kikered_> It's also important to be open to ideas and be willing to accept changes that you aren't completely happy with. ^^;
<xRENx> I was wondering
<xRENx> Assuming you were to work as an artist for a writer/programmer, would you think of your role as a secondary one?
<xRENx> Not for importance
<Kikered_> But in terms of... priority?
<xRENx> More like, with you being dependant on the writer.Without being able to switch from time to time
<xRENx> Yes
<Kikered_> Hm..
<xRENx> I used to read a novel that apparently was published in episodes originally
<xRENx> I remember that the writer said clearly that sometimes the illustrations gave him some ideas for the story's development
<xRENx> So, sometimes his artist would affect the way the story continued
<Kikered_> If it were me, I'd see me role as secondary.
<Kikered_> But it wouldn't prevent me from being a bit of an editor as sorts as well. =3
<FIA-Kaiser> Hmm, this thing is harder than I thought...
<Kikered_> I'd be willing to bounce ideas back and forth with the writer/director if s/he is wants to
<Kikered_> * minus 'is'